神秘的大佛

连趣网论坛

 找回密码
 注册一个用户
查看: 2432|回复: 71

[H187]看杆子的证伪,需要稍微懂点鸟语

[复制链接]

1473

主题

4万

帖子

7万

积分

连趣总理

Rank: 15Rank: 15Rank: 15Rank: 15Rank: 15

注册时间
2012年11月11日
在线时间
6964 小时
精华
2

宝贝展示2连趣书影大赛2014我最爱的七八十年代连环画我与连趣的故事品连谈兵

发表于 2016年11月30日 11:36 | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式
本帖最后由 kevinet 于 2016年11月30日 14:26 编辑

杆子引用鸟语来说明电影《胜利大逃亡》故事来源的所谓死亡球赛是假的:

The film is based on the 1962 Hungarian film drama Két félidő a pokolban ("Two half-times in Hell"), which was directed by Zoltán Fábri and won the critics' award at the 1962 Boston Cinema Festival.[5]
The film was inspired by the now discredited story of the so-called Death Match in which FC Dynamo Kyiv defeated German soldiers while Ukraine was occupied by German troops in the Second World War. According to myth, as a result of their victory, the Ukrainians were all shot. The true story is considerably more complex, as the team played a series of matches against German teams, emerging victorious in all of them, before any of them were sent to prison camps by the Gestapo. Only four players were documented as being killed by the Germans, and their deaths were long after the dates of the matches they had won.[6]


来个英译汉先

电影《胜利大逃亡》是根据1962年的匈牙利电影《地狱里的两个半场》拍摄的(这里姑且就先认为是翻拍吧)。。。导演BRA。。。获奖BRA。。。
电影《胜利大逃亡》受到了以下这个已经被确认为不实故事的影响,就是所谓的。。。BRA。。。死亡球赛,真实的故事实际上更为复杂(参照前后文,这里的更为复杂用的有点莫名其妙~),足球队赢得了所有与德国队的比赛,却没有一个人被盖世太保送进集中营,其中只是有四名队员有文件可以证明被德国人杀害了,但那已经是在他们赢得比赛之后很长时间以后的事情了~。

杆子找的鸟语原文也许还有上下文,但摘抄的部分已经能说明一些主要问题了,如果说我之前援引的所谓真实故事是杜撰的,那杆子的鸟语摘抄也是漏洞百出的,这段鸟语先说乌克兰基辅迪纳摩FC的死亡球赛之故事是不实的、是虚构的,最后又证据确凿的说真的有4个队员被德国人杀害了,说不实只是源于笔者的一个牵强的推断,long after,咱们捋捋时间先:

二战是1939的9月份爆发,1941年6月22日德国入侵苏联,旋即占领基辅,而苏联于1943年11月6日早晨6时50分收复基辅,2年半不到的时间跨度,却被鸟语笔者称为long after?比较好奇这位的时间长度单位是啥?退步讲,就算4名倒霉的队员被关在了别的、苏联还没有解放的地方,但苏联在1944就已经攻入波兰了,也就是说2年半不到的时间跨度还可以死乞白咧的延长1年,那要是关在德国境内呢?OK,1945年5月8日德国投降,欧洲战场结束战争,2年半变成4年半,不能再长了吧,取最长的4年半,叫做long after也是很勉强吧?笔者煞费苦心用long after这个词儿无外乎是想把4名队员的被杀与足球队撇清关系,其实,用人类身体腰部以下的部位略微想想就会知道,如果先是逮捕、审讯、折磨,直到最后被杀害,就算是4年半,那还算long after吗?能撇清与足球队的关系吗?能撇清德国人不是在报复吗?

杆子的引用并不能明明白白的证明死亡球赛是伪的,同时却也承认了有球员被杀的史实,long after的推断并没有更多其他的时间、地点、过程之证据来支持,而且,笔者似乎有个观点,只有相关死亡证明文件的才可以认为是死了的,在二战期间德国杀害他国无数的大前提下,如此坚持也是有点令人迷茫~,所以,结论只能是死亡球赛或许存疑,但确实又有4名球员被德国人杀害,这存疑的力度怎么看都比较牵强~

再说说翻拍。

翻拍电影不是一件见不得人的事情,致敬也是需要技巧与水平的,匈牙利的这部《地狱里的两个半场》没看过,但《胜利大逃亡》的精彩就像《肖申克的救赎》一样,翻拍、引用、致敬都不是问题,问题还是亘古不变的疗效如何~,《地狱里的两个半场》在豆瓣和IMDB都找到了,从评论人数可以看出,看过这片的人很少,所以,我PF减K和浆糊兄的看过,还有杆子的鸟语搜索能力,对于此片的评论和鸟文的鉴别能力。。。呵呵,快吃午饭了~

436.JPG
437.JPG

评分

参与人数 3经验 +55 收起 理由
ibm2 + 20 很给力!
黑罜帝 + 15 很给力!
bjn + 20 淡定

查看全部评分

中国好别号-老K别号第五期:牛K!、1号敦伦K!、牛2K、極東 ケ兎郎、折学活化石!、K记凉奶茶、冰力十K、K抠、K兔爷儿、K兔郎、铁公兔、K(抠)死铆子、抠兔纯一狼、KOU、酒蒙兔、且抠且K、K桶捞影、捞K、盯裆猫、蹭热点、菠萝·老K、随手K、随手翻·老K、跑题K、以其昏昏使人昭昭、泼珠k杯、

122

主题

5947

帖子

1万

积分

连趣部长

井底蛙书斋

Rank: 13Rank: 13Rank: 13Rank: 13

注册时间
2011年11月17日
在线时间
7846 小时
精华
0

宝贝展示2连趣书影大赛2014

发表于 2016年11月30日 11:45 | 显示全部楼层
OMG! 老K真厉害,又码那么多字![em207]

评分

参与人数 1经验 +7 收起 理由
kevinet + 7

查看全部评分

入门穿竹径, 留客听山泉
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

534

主题

1万

帖子

4万

积分

连趣副总理

不为五毛钱折腰

Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14

注册时间
2008年7月15日
在线时间
15226 小时
精华
12

2018晒宝大赛连趣2015百题竞赛杂谈活动奖家乡美摄影奖

发表于 2016年11月30日 11:51 | 显示全部楼层
乌克兰那事,乌克兰自己的历史学家证伪的,你就别瞎吵吵了

wiki上有详细资料,我贴的这段是浓缩版,等我有空把足本放上来

点评

不管足不足,是不是也承认有4个队员被杀?  发表于 2016年11月30日 12:08
请看懂帖子再跟帖,免得自取其辱
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

534

主题

1万

帖子

4万

积分

连趣副总理

不为五毛钱折腰

Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14

注册时间
2008年7月15日
在线时间
15226 小时
精华
12

2018晒宝大赛连趣2015百题竞赛杂谈活动奖家乡美摄影奖

发表于 2016年11月30日 12:07 | 显示全部楼层
先给你看一点

Historical accounts and analysis after the dissolution of the USSR[edit]
After the decline of the Soviet Union, journalists and historians in the new state of Ukraine were able to make historical research without being controlled by Glavlit, the Soviet censorship agency.
Eyewitness[edit]
The 50th anniversary of the "Death Match" in 1992 marked the beginning of eyewitness reports in Ukrainian mass media:
  • Kiev Radio broadcast an interview with former Dynamo player Makar Honcharenko [15] Honcharenko denied the version that the players were threatened by an SS officer: "Nobody from the official administration blackmailed us for giving up the match."[11]
  • Sport reporter Georgi Kuzmin published a series of articles entitled "The Truth about the Death Match". According to him the creation of the "Death Match" legend was a countermeasure of Soviet propaganda to the reproach that the inhabitants of Kiev "did not fight against the aggressor".[16]
  • Writer Oleg Yasinsky published his report "Did the Death Match happen?"[17][18] Being a youth Yasinsky was among the spectators of the match and later played on Dynamo's youth team.
  • Vladlen Putistin, son of midfielder Mikhail Putistin, an ethnic Russian, being eight years old at the time of the match was one of the ball boys during the match. Later he interviewed (unofficially) some of the players.[12]
All these reports denied the Soviet version: There were no SS officers being referees or threatening the Start team.[19] The Germans played fair, the referee did not manipulate. There were no heavy armed soldiers with dogs in the stadium. The red jerseys were not a symbol for communist spirit; instead, the players got them from the Germans.[20] Indeed, the Germans arrested nine of the Start players, but the first among them was nine days after the match. Five, not four, players were murdered by the SS, three among them half a year after the match. All the eyewitnesses denied the version that the Dynamo players were murdered as revenge for the German defeat.[21]
Historical research[edit]
The first genuine historical studies of the "Death Match" confirmed the reports of the eyewitnesses. Former Generallieutenant of Justice Volodymyr Pristaiko, having been vice chief of the Ukrainian Security Service SBU, summoned his analysis of the papers documenting the arrest and death of the Dynamo players: "There was definitively no context to the match."[22] In his book (2006), he published NKVD papers concerning FC Start from 1944 to 1948 as well as KGB documents from the Breshnew era.[23]
Historian Volodymyr Hynda showed that defeats of German teams against local clubs happened regularly. The Ukrainian press, controlled by the Germans, published many reports about these matches. Hynda found informations about 150 matches and documented the results of 111 among them: the Ukrainians won 60 matches and lost 36 matches, 15 were draws.[24]

点评

不管足不足,是不是也承认有4个队员被杀?  发表于 2016年11月30日 12:09
请看懂帖子再跟帖,免得自取其辱
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

534

主题

1万

帖子

4万

积分

连趣副总理

不为五毛钱折腰

Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14

注册时间
2008年7月15日
在线时间
15226 小时
精华
12

2018晒宝大赛连趣2015百题竞赛杂谈活动奖家乡美摄影奖

发表于 2016年11月30日 12:11 | 显示全部楼层
[size=1.0625]A Twisted Legend
[size=1.0625]That has hardly kept fact from becoming embroidered with legend. By late 1943 and early 1944, once Kiev was liberated by the Soviets, newspaper articles began appearing, describing details that would fit into a jigsaw myth known as the Death Match.
Photo

“Not one document can prove any of these things,” said Kirill Boyko, manager of the Dynamo fan club. “We believe in legend.” [size=0.6875]CreditJoseph Sywenkyj for The New York Times
[size=1.0625]Initially, Soviet authorities were hesitant to promote the legend, concerned that the players might have been Nazi collaborators for participating in that series of games in 1942, according to Tetiana Bykova, a historian at the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences who has studied the so-called Death Match.
[size=1.0625]But articles had been published and “the genie was out of the bottle,” Bykova said. “If you can’t silence the story, then you have to tell it so that it’s going to get maximum political advantage.”
[size=1.0625]The Soviet solution was to pretend the other matches had not taken place and to embellish the idea of a death match, Bykova said. Beginning in the late 1950s, with publication of a Kiev newspaper article and book called “The Final Duel,” and subsequent movies released in the Soviet Union and Hungary, the match came to serve both as a source of Ukrainian pride and useful Soviet propaganda.
[size=1.0625]“It’s like in ‘The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance,’ ” Dougan said. “When the legend is better than the truth, print the legend.”
[size=1.0625]Initially, the Start players had been reluctant to discuss the match. A key reason was fear, Dougan and others said. Fear of being seen as Nazi collaborators. Fear of being resented for living under less harsh circumstances than others and for shirking their war duty. Fear of contradicting a tale of Soviet heroism amid Nazi atrocities.
[size=1.0625]This helps explain why Goncharenko gave conflicting versions through the years. And why, in his 1985 account, Goncharenko said that before Trusevich, the goalkeeper, was shot to death six and a half months after the match, his final words were, “Long live Stalin, long live Soviet sport.”
[size=1.0625]According to Dougan, Goncharenko “had been very scared.”
[size=1.0625]As the Soviet Union collapsed, more prosaic accounts of the match were given. Georgi Kuzmin, a Ukrainian journalist who has covered soccer for more than 40 years, said that Goncharenko told him in 1991 that no one asked the Start players to throw the match and that Goncharenko did not believe the players were deliberately killed for winning. Goncharenko gave a similar account of an ordinary match to a Ukrainian newspaper in 1996. He has since died.
Photo

A poster on display at a museum in Ukraine advertising a rematch between the Start team and a Nazi team.[size=0.6875]CreditJoseph Sywenkyj for The New York Times
[size=1.0625]When the former Start players were awarded medals some two decades after the match, one of them, Mikhail Putistin, declined his, saying later he could not participate in a lie, Kuzmin said.
[size=1.0625]Bykova, the historian, said evidence indicates the Germans played fairly and did not injure the Start goalkeeper, at least not on purpose. It was the Ukrainian players who became the more aggressive team as the match progressed, she said. She also believes a straightforward recounting of the game might have become even more powerful than the myth.
[size=1.0625]“It takes more perseverance and courage to survive on a daily basis, to come home and see the hungry eyes of your children, than to pull yourself together for two hours for a game,” Bykova said.
[size=1.0625]Today, Start Stadium hosts summer matches by amateur and semiprofessional teams, whose players do not always wait until the final whistle to fortify their fitness with beer and cigarettes. Children ride bikes and roller-blade on an asphalt track around the well-kept field. And the statue behind the crumbling grandstand helps perpetuate the legend of the Death Match.
[size=1.0625]“It was propaganda,” said Kuzmin, whose history of Ukrainian soccer, “What Did and Didn’t Happen,” was published in 2010. “The Soviets could show that people would go to their death for the sake of Soviet ideology. And the people of Kiev like the story. It’s a good fairy tale. But everyone should know the truth.”
[size=1.0625]For some, truth is beside the point.
[size=1.0625]At the Dynamo stadium in Kiev, there is a monument honoring the four Start players who died in the weeks and months after that 1942 match. The players are shirtless, holding hands, boldly resistant. Tours of the stadium and the monument are not burdened by debate. They are celebrations, not investigations.
[size=1.0625]“Not one document can prove any of these things,” said Kirill Boyko, the manager of the Dynamo fan club. “We are patriots for our country and our team. We believe in legend.”

请看懂帖子再跟帖,免得自取其辱
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

534

主题

1万

帖子

4万

积分

连趣副总理

不为五毛钱折腰

Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14

注册时间
2008年7月15日
在线时间
15226 小时
精华
12

2018晒宝大赛连趣2015百题竞赛杂谈活动奖家乡美摄影奖

发表于 2016年11月30日 12:14 | 显示全部楼层
四个球员被杀,There was definitively no context to the match,和比赛毫无关系,你是装傻还是真傻?


球队有警方背景,德国人抓捕球员是怀疑他们是乌克兰情报人员,后来苏联人来了,也怀疑这些球员和纳粹合作

点评

德国怀疑他们是乌克兰情报人员是托词那?  发表于 2016年11月30日 12:26
说没有也难啊,难道过了9天抓和过了6个月杀就不是死亡比赛了  发表于 2016年11月30日 12:25
请看懂帖子再跟帖,免得自取其辱
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

22

主题

278

帖子

950

积分

连趣副队长

狂飙的蜗牛

Rank: 3Rank: 3

注册时间
2015年9月26日
在线时间
172 小时
精华
0
发表于 2016年11月30日 12:18 | 显示全部楼层
我始终认为,杆子的帖子语言生动活泼,妙趣横生。这是其他人跟杆子水平的最大差距。至于学术方面的问题,枯燥乏味又有谁愿意细究呢,有一些帖子,能看出来发帖人很用心,但是我看到一小段就看不下去了,语言组织和表达能力很重要,这是你们需要跟杆子学习的地方。

点评

说具体ID,不要低估别人的抗压能力~  发表于 2016年11月30日 14:36
花有重开日,人无再少年
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

1473

主题

4万

帖子

7万

积分

连趣总理

Rank: 15Rank: 15Rank: 15Rank: 15Rank: 15

注册时间
2012年11月11日
在线时间
6964 小时
精华
2

宝贝展示2连趣书影大赛2014我最爱的七八十年代连环画我与连趣的故事品连谈兵

 楼主| 发表于 2016年11月30日 12:24 | 显示全部楼层
bo_xu_canada 发表于 2016年11月30日 12:07
先给你看一点

Historical accounts and analysis after the dissolution of the USSR[edit]After the de ...

看啥啊,当事人只是否认有被威胁、比赛现场没有大狼狗,还有红色球衫不是象征苏联红色政权,而且是从德国人那里得到的,除了这些蒜皮之外,你最新鸟文里的

Indeed, the Germans arrested nine of the Start players, but the first among them was nine days after the match. Five, not four, players were murdered by the SS, three among them half a year after the match.

确实,德国人逮捕了9名队员,但是这9个中第一个被逮捕是在比赛结束9天之后,5名球员被党卫军杀害,不是4个,其中3名是在比赛结束半年之后

杆子,难道过了9天抓和过了6个月杀就不是死亡比赛了?

点评

球员被捕和被杀害,和比赛没有关系,所以死亡比赛不存在  发表于 2016年11月30日 12:29
中国好别号-老K别号第五期:牛K!、1号敦伦K!、牛2K、極東 ケ兎郎、折学活化石!、K记凉奶茶、冰力十K、K抠、K兔爷儿、K兔郎、铁公兔、K(抠)死铆子、抠兔纯一狼、KOU、酒蒙兔、且抠且K、K桶捞影、捞K、盯裆猫、蹭热点、菠萝·老K、随手K、随手翻·老K、跑题K、以其昏昏使人昭昭、泼珠k杯、
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

534

主题

1万

帖子

4万

积分

连趣副总理

不为五毛钱折腰

Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14

注册时间
2008年7月15日
在线时间
15226 小时
精华
12

2018晒宝大赛连趣2015百题竞赛杂谈活动奖家乡美摄影奖

发表于 2016年11月30日 12:26 | 显示全部楼层
kevinet 发表于 2016年11月30日 12:24
看啥啊,当事人只是否认有被威胁、比赛现场没有大狼狗,还有红色球衫不是象征苏联红色政权,而且是从德国 ...

球员被捕被杀都和比赛没有关系,所以死亡比赛不存在

你说德国人乱杀人,那是另一回事


请看懂帖子再跟帖,免得自取其辱
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

534

主题

1万

帖子

4万

积分

连趣副总理

不为五毛钱折腰

Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14Rank: 14

注册时间
2008年7月15日
在线时间
15226 小时
精华
12

2018晒宝大赛连趣2015百题竞赛杂谈活动奖家乡美摄影奖

发表于 2016年11月30日 12:28 | 显示全部楼层
kevinet 发表于 2016年11月30日 12:24
看啥啊,当事人只是否认有被威胁、比赛现场没有大狼狗,还有红色球衫不是象征苏联红色政权,而且是从德国 ...

乌克兰自己的历史学家,包括当时的观众甚至球员,都说那是一场没有任何异常的普通比赛,至于后来有球员被害,那是另外的原因触发,和比赛毫无关系


点评

你这样哼哼教诲干嘛,老K有没学费交!  发表于 2016年11月30日 12:47
比赛正常这个无异议,关键是说过了9天抓和过了6个月杀和比赛没有关系难同意~  发表于 2016年11月30日 12:30
请看懂帖子再跟帖,免得自取其辱
回复 支持 反对

使用道具 举报

您需要登录后才可以回帖 登录 | 注册一个用户

本版积分规则

Archiver|连趣网 ( 京ICP备13010301号-1 )

GMT+8, 2024年11月24日 03:51 , Processed in 0.083547 second(s), 30 queries .

Powered by Discuz! X3.4

© 2001-2023 Discuz! Team.

快速回复 返回顶部 返回列表